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    Wrestlemania Host *RAW Spoilers*

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    RVDSucka

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    Wrestlemania Host *RAW Spoilers*

    Post  RVDSucka on Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:26 pm

    The Rock? I marked somethin fierce.
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    Benz21

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    Re: Wrestlemania Host *RAW Spoilers*

    Post  Benz21 on Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:41 pm

    The Rock's return made me come back from Smash hiatus, lol.
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    Big Dave

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    Re: Wrestlemania Host *RAW Spoilers*

    Post  Big Dave on Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:58 am

    Host?
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    Mr Torrie Wilson

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    Re: Wrestlemania Host *RAW Spoilers*

    Post  Mr Torrie Wilson on Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:23 am

    This Week's WWE Did You Know: 99.98% of WWE fans who also use the internet had to change their underwear when The Rock started burying John Cena.
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    Shane McMahon

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    Re: Wrestlemania Host *RAW Spoilers*

    Post  Shane McMahon on Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:03 pm

    The Rock comes in to spike the buyrate and cheap pops, buries one of their top stars who will still be around post-Mania and makes false promises to young kids in the audience. Despicable behaviour guys, despicable.
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    The Phenom

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    Re: Wrestlemania Host *RAW Spoilers*

    Post  The Phenom on Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:14 pm

    Does anyone actually think he'll stick around? I watched this episode of Raw last night in Afghanistan with a bunch of guys, all of us marked like crazy, but none of us thinks he'll stick around at all. He may just set himself up for a match vs. Cena at whatever PPV is after WM now, but I can't see a full return. I'd estimate he's gone by June.
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    showstealer

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    Re: Wrestlemania Host *RAW Spoilers*

    Post  showstealer on Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:13 am

    Now that my underwear has been changed I'll give my view.

    The Rock promised that he would stay, which was pretty interesting, I guess me means in a part time role?

    As for Cena, no matter what you say about the writers the top stars have always been able to get a good reaction from the crowd no matter what. Dusty Rhodes got over in pokadots, Flair was written in to angles which were aimed to bury him and even received chants when he wasn't on the show. I know it's fashionable to go against the mainstream opinion and go on about merchandise sales (feel free to actually use some stats) and Cena is obviously a better talent than most people give him credit for, but it's clear that Cena shouldn't have been where he was/is for as long as he has been. He was shoved down people's throats to such a degree that people turned against him or stop watching, WWE also lacked the guts to turn him heel when they should've which has hampered his career big time. He could have been a big star if they did it properly, but I personally believe that is unlikely and that no one has ever had a more undeserving push than Cena, who will no doubt do a promo about Rock selling out, hardly company poster boy material. Sleep

    That being said, CM Punk has to be one of the best heels ever! Very Happy

    KunŠ

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    Re: Wrestlemania Host *RAW Spoilers*

    Post  KunŠ on Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:56 am

    ShowStealer wrote:Now that my underwear has been changed I'll give my view.

    The Rock promised that he would stay, which was pretty interesting, I guess me means in a part time role?

    As for Cena, no matter what you say about the writers the top stars have always been able to get a good reaction from the crowd no matter what. Dusty Rhodes got over in pokadots, Flair was written in to angles which were aimed to bury him and even received chants when he wasn't on the show. I know it's fashionable to go against the mainstream opinion and go on about merchandise sales (feel free to actually use some stats) and Cena is obviously a better talent than most people give him credit for, but it's clear that Cena shouldn't have been where he was/is for as long as he has been. He was shoved down people's throats to such a degree that people turned against him or stop watching, WWE also lacked the guts to turn him heel when they should've which has hampered his career big time. He could have been a big star if they did it properly, but I personally believe that is unlikely and that no one has ever had a more undeserving push than Cena, who will no doubt do a promo about Rock selling out, hardly company poster boy material. Sleep

    That being said, CM Punk has to be one of the best heels ever! Very Happy

    scratch Wow.

    How can it be going against mainstream opinion if Cena has pretty much been THE face of the WWE for years. I think you're mistaking 'mainstream' for some dudes on a wrestling forum. To say he doesn't deserve it either is laughable. It's already been said countless times that Cena is the most dedicated, had-working man in the company, and he is a DRAW. Maybe not on the level of a Hogan or an Austin but he is on top in a totally different era. Trust me, the WWE would be in a much worse position without Cena.

    'He could have been a big star'? shrug

    I've never exactly been Cena's biggest fan. I agree with a lot of his critics and feel sorta dirty for continiously backing him up but some of the shit you come out with is unbelievable...
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    showstealer

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    Re: Wrestlemania Host *RAW Spoilers*

    Post  showstealer on Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:55 pm

    Big star, draw, this is all due to him being chosen to lead the company. Whoever was chosen to lead the biggest wrestling company would be a big star if that's how you define it. I define it by mainstream (the non-internet forum one!) acknowledgement, ask someone who was in to wrestling if they've heard of him, chances are they haven't.

    Hardest working? Has he shown any signs of improvement over the last few years? Trish Status & The Big Show showed some serious improvements by working hard. Cena has been restricted by the PG rating which would've hampered Austin's rise and the writers have their share of the blame but it's his character and he would've been able to contribute ideas. A heel turn and an edgy face Cena would have been interesting, but has he got the charisma for that? Really? Lets see how he counters The Rock's comments.

    Who's been less deserving of a push as big as Cena and did the ratings drop when he was injured?

    KunŠ

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    Re: Wrestlemania Host *RAW Spoilers*

    Post  KunŠ on Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:50 pm

    ShowStealer wrote:Big star, draw, this is all due to him being chosen to lead the company. Whoever was chosen to lead the biggest wrestling company would be a big star if that's how you define it. I define it by mainstream (the non-internet forum one!) acknowledgement, ask someone who was in to wrestling if they've heard of him, chances are they haven't.


    Yes, it's not like we're currently in a totally different era where most people hide the fact they watch wrestling or anything. What do you mean chosen? Austin, Rocky, Hogan were all 'chosen' due to their popularity. Cena was incredibly hot before he got his big push, that's why he got the push in the first place.

    ShowStealer wrote:Hardest working? Has he shown any signs of improvement over the last few years? Trish Status & The Big Show showed some serious improvements by working hard. Cena has been restricted by the PG rating which would've hampered Austin's rise and the writers have their share of the blame but it's his character and he would've been able to contribute ideas. A heel turn and an edgy face Cena would have been interesting, but has he got the charisma for that? Really? Lets see how he counters The Rock's comments.

    Who's been less deserving of a push as big as Cena and did the ratings drop when he was injured?

    Hardest working both in and out of the ring. Have you saw the amount of shit Cena does outside of actual shows? And whether you like it or not Cena is one of the most consistent big match performers today using that WWE style.

    He got so over in the first place as an edgy face. Don't know if you heard but recently Cena had to apologise for saying ass on raw or something on his twitter. The Rock would put down pretty much everybody on the mic so I wouldn't really go by that.

    Very few performers actually get a push like Cena's. Again, show me proof that the WWE would be better off WITHOUT Cena, rather than avoiding my question.
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    showstealer

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    Re: Wrestlemania Host *RAW Spoilers*

    Post  showstealer on Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:34 pm

    Austin was never chosen to be the big star, the fans were cheering him when he was a heel and WWE took full advantage of it. Cena pinned Jerico in one of his first matches.

    Hardest working in the ring? Why hasn't he improved? What's he done outside of the ring that no one has done before?

    Avoiding the question? I asked you two in the last post you didn't ask one. You can't rephrase one of my questions then claim that I'm avoiding it. Unless there's a stat that can prove otherwise IMO the ratings wouldn't have dipped when he was injured.

    Very few have received a push like him, and he is without doubt the least successful of them.
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    Mr Torrie Wilson

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    Re: Wrestlemania Host *RAW Spoilers*

    Post  Mr Torrie Wilson on Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:57 pm

    The idea that anyone would stop watching because of John Cena and John Cena alone is interesting. There are plenty, plenty reasons why someone wouldn't watch this shit anymore, but jesus christ, if your sole reason was you didn't like John Cena, you'd have to be the stupidest fucking dipshit ever imo. It'd be like giving up being a racist because you didn't like Hitler's moustache.

    KunŠ

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    Re: Wrestlemania Host *RAW Spoilers*

    Post  KunŠ on Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:07 pm

    ...and Carlito defeated Cena and Tazz pinned Angle on his debut. We both know what happened to them. Things are different now. Nobody really pays their dues. Look at Sheamus. The fact that The Miz is the closest thing we've had nowadays to a guy paying his dues is quite sad.

    Cena was over. The fans chose Cena. Cena got pushed. You seem to live in some fantasy world where Cena burst on to the scene pinning legends right, left and centre all the while the fans BOO and millions of viewers stop watching. What an evil bastard that Cena is.

    Cena does way more than anybody else. He goes to charities, those make-a-wish events, he never stops. He IS the face of the company. I seem to remember a quote, either from him or his wife where the wife basically had to admit she came second to the business.

    My point is you've decided you can't prove Cena doesn't draw so you've invented some bullshit theory about no ratings dip when injured meaning he doesn't draw. You really have no grounds to say he can't draw and you're pretty fucking stupid to say so.
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    Mr Torrie Wilson

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    Re: Wrestlemania Host *RAW Spoilers*

    Post  Mr Torrie Wilson on Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:17 pm

    ShowStealer wrote:Austin was never chosen to be the big star, the fans were cheering him when he was a heel and WWE took full advantage of it.

    Until you realise why Austin was able to get over to the extent he did in 1996-1998 and why he most likely wouldn't be able to do that to the extent he did if he came along today, that comparison will probably always seem a fair one to you to make.

    But that was fifteen years ago. We all love that era, but it's gone and it's not ever coming back the way it was. It's a different industry now. It's not like for like at all. Cena can only be judged by the standards of his time. Just like it's not really fair to compare what Austin did to what Hogan did or to what Sammartino did because the landscapes were all different.
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    KabukiJoe

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    Re: Wrestlemania Host *RAW Spoilers*

    Post  KabukiJoe on Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:10 pm

    ShowStealer wrote:Austin was never chosen to be the big star, the fans were cheering him when he was a heel and WWE took full advantage of it. Cena pinned Jerico in one of his first matches.

    Hardest working in the ring? Why hasn't he improved? What's he done outside of the ring that no one has done before?

    Avoiding the question? I asked you two in the last post you didn't ask one. You can't rephrase one of my questions then claim that I'm avoiding it. Unless there's a stat that can prove otherwise IMO the ratings wouldn't have dipped when he was injured.

    Very few have received a push like him, and he is without doubt the least successful of them.
    Cena's victory over Jericho was actually Jericho's initial idea, at least that what he says in his second book. Apparently the original plan was for Jericho to go over, but a few days before the PPV, Jericho suggested to Vince that Cena go over as he saw something special in him. It's in the first two pages of Chapter 26 of "Chris Jericho Undisputed".
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    showstealer

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    Re: Wrestlemania Host *RAW Spoilers*

    Post  showstealer on Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:40 am

    Mr Torrie Wilson wrote:The idea that anyone would stop watching because of John Cena and John Cena alone is interesting. There are plenty, plenty reasons why someone wouldn't watch this shit anymore, but jesus christ, if your sole reason was you didn't like John Cena, you'd have to be the stupidest fucking dipshit ever imo. It'd be like giving up being a racist because you didn't like Hitler's moustache.
    Show's are built around him and he's on TV the most. Your exaggerations are ridiculous, it's a TV show, changing channels doesn't make you an idiot.

    Adey wrote:...and Carlito defeated Cena and Tazz pinned Angle on his debut. We both know what happened to them. Things are different now. Nobody really pays their dues. Look at Sheamus. The fact that The Miz is the closest thing we've had nowadays to a guy paying his dues is quite sad.

    Cena was over. The fans chose Cena. Cena got pushed. You seem to live in some fantasy world where Cena burst on to the scene pinning legends right, left and centre all the while the fans BOO and millions of viewers stop watching. What an evil bastard that Cena is.

    Cena does way more than anybody else. He goes to charities, those make-a-wish events, he never stops. He IS the face of the company. I seem to remember a quote, either from him or his wife where the wife basically had to admit she came second to the business.

    My point is you've decided you can't prove Cena doesn't draw so you've invented some bullshit theory about no ratings dip when injured meaning he doesn't draw. You really have no grounds to say he can't draw and you're pretty fucking stupid to say so.
    What you're failing to understand is that Cena was given a monster push, if Carlito received it (which would involve drastic changes to his mid-card gimmick) instead he would have been at a similar level, which is what my point is. Like i said the charity work is commendable, but not unique to Cena. Being a draw can be proven by ratings. Raw will receive a boast next week as people will tune in to see if The Rock appears. Guest hosts, million dollar give aways, these are all signs that something isn't working.

    Mr Torrie Wilson wrote:
    ShowStealer wrote:Austin was never chosen to be the big star, the fans were cheering him when he was a heel and WWE took full advantage of it.

    Until you realise why Austin was able to get over to the extent he did in 1996-1998 and why he most likely wouldn't be able to do that to the extent he did if he came along today, that comparison will probably always seem a fair one to you to make.

    But that was fifteen years ago. We all love that era, but it's gone and it's not ever coming back the way it was. It's a different industry now. It's not like for like at all. Cena can only be judged by the standards of his time. Just like it's not really fair to compare what Austin did to what Hogan did or to what Sammartino did because the landscapes were all different.
    I've mentioned this, bare in mind that the second biggest face Orton recently punted a member of nexus in the face. You're making excuses for Cena.


    Very few have received a push like him, and until anyone can prove otherwise I believe he is without doubt the least successful of them all. Surely if I'm so wrong this should be easy to prove and I am man enough to admit when I'm wrong.
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    Mr Torrie Wilson

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    Re: Wrestlemania Host *RAW Spoilers*

    Post  Mr Torrie Wilson on Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:00 am

    ShowStealer wrote:
    Mr Torrie Wilson wrote:The idea that anyone would stop watching because of John Cena and John Cena alone is interesting. There are plenty, plenty reasons why someone wouldn't watch this shit anymore, but jesus christ, if your sole reason was you didn't like John Cena, you'd have to be the stupidest fucking dipshit ever imo. It'd be like giving up being a racist because you didn't like Hitler's moustache.
    Show's are built around him and he's on TV the most. Your exaggerations are ridiculous, it's a TV show, changing channels doesn't make you an idiot.


    If it's your ONLY reason then yes you are a fucking grade-A ass hat. There are probably a thousand great reasons why people would stop watching WWE. If Cena is the straw that breaks the camels back for you then fair enough. But to think that there is someone who doesn't have a problem with all the other shit they do week in week out but does have a problem with one wrestler, then that person would most definitely be one stupid fucker. Think about it for a second.

    Some of the things they don't mind:

    Wrestlers dying young.
    The horrible counter-productive booking.
    The exploitation of wrestlers.
    The disdain they show for their own audience all the time.
    The rampant sexism, homophobia, racism, xenophobia displayed.
    The shows being boring.

    Things they do mind enough to stop watching:

    John Cena.

    If this is you then you are stupid.

    ShowStealer wrote:
    Mr Torrie Wilson wrote:
    ShowStealer wrote:Austin was never chosen to be the big star, the fans were cheering him when he was a heel and WWE took full advantage of it.

    Until you realise why Austin was able to get over to the extent he did in 1996-1998 and why he most likely wouldn't be able to do that to the extent he did if he came along today, that comparison will probably always seem a fair one to you to make.

    But that was fifteen years ago. We all love that era, but it's gone and it's not ever coming back the way it was. It's a different industry now. It's not like for like at all. Cena can only be judged by the standards of his time. Just like it's not really fair to compare what Austin did to what Hogan did or to what Sammartino did because the landscapes were all different.
    I've mentioned this, bare in mind that the second biggest face Orton recently punted a member of nexus in the face. You're making excuses for Cena.

    I'm not entirely sure what you are talking about here in regards to Orton but I think you're meaning that Orton did something heelish, the way Austin would do in his day? If this is what you mean, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you've completely missed the point I was making with Austin. I'm not in any way referring to how Austin got over as the anti-babyface. I'm talking about the infrastructure that existed in that era that would allow a rising star like Austin to become the star he did. For someone to catch on the way he did, an awful lot more has to be in place for it to happen than simply having him become popular by stunnering everyone in sight every week. Lots of things have to be clicking at the same time for it to happen. Shock TV was heavily on the rise in 1997 and the WWE was able to tap into that. The company's back was against the wall for most of 1996, and they really hit their stride in 1997. By Wrestlemania 14 their momentum was ridiculous. WWE aren't in that position today, mainly for reasons of their own creation over the past decade. They can still create stars, but a lot is going to have to change for them to create one approaching the level of and Austin, Hogan or Rock. And that has little to do with John Cena.

    As much as people slag off Nash, and even Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels, for their perceived lack of success as WWF champions between 1992 to 1996, you also have to acknowledge that there were a lot of factors outwith their control at the time that didn't help them, similar to the way Cena is affected today.

    ShowStealer wrote:
    Very few have received a push like him, and until anyone can prove otherwise I believe he is without doubt the least successful of them all. Surely if I'm so wrong this should be easy to prove and I am man enough to admit when I'm wrong.

    Well if we play by your rules then and the success/failure of the company is entirely due to John Cena, then the fact that last year was the company's second most profitable year behind 2007 shows that John Cena is the greatest draw of all time. Or we live on planet earth and consider the idea that there may be more going on than it all falling on the shoulders of one man.
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    showstealer

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    Re: Wrestlemania Host *RAW Spoilers*

    Post  showstealer on Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:37 am

    You raise some very good points and I think your last paragraph is very telling. If they're making a load of money and there is no rival company, and nothing even resembling a threat to their position as the largest wrestling company in America, then the TV show can't be as important as it once was. PPV sales are down 23%, which only goes to strengthen this view.

    As for your list at the start, a casual fan, the type who will watch the show on or off and is their target market is only going to not bother watching because the show is dull and boring. Having a the same guy always win, especially a face, is going to contribute to that. There's nothing stupid about that at all. Very few wrestlers are able to keep things interesting when the show is built around them, as unquestionable it is an extremely hard task. Although the majority of this is contributed to the writers and bookers the wrestler themselves has a part to play, an extremely talent wrestler, the likes of which only come around every 10 years or so is able to make people pay each month to see the same thing, Cena isn't at this level, neither was Hart, Nash or Michaels, despite 2 our of that 3 being highly regarding by the IWC. Although in a different era Hogan was the king of this, Austin was also brilliant at it.

    Television is constantly changing in 2000s, it moved to more reality based which despite producing tough enough they weren't able to take advantage of, perhaps due to the reasons in my first paragraph.

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