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    The Phenom

    Number of posts : 238
    Registration date : 2008-09-18

    Let's put a spark in this section

    Post  The Phenom on Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:40 am

    So, I bought two guns before I left the states (in preparation for the inevitable Obama ban). I bought a .40 Cal Glock model 22 Pistol, and a Mossberg 500 8 shot tactical 12 ga. shotgun. Of course, I couldn't bring them to Germany because it would cost me about $1000 for the licensing and many months of classes (and for some reason the fucking hundreds of hours of instruction I've had on much more complicated weapons and weapons systems doesn't count for shit).

    So which way is the way to go? The no guns approach of Europe, or the regulated guns of the US? Now there are of course many more issues which we will inevitably run into (social classes in certain countries, murder figures etc...) But let's start off with some general discussion.
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    Sweatsock

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    Re: Let's put a spark in this section

    Post  Sweatsock on Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:14 pm



    _________________
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    Re: Let's put a spark in this section

    Post  Guest on Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:39 pm

    No guns. Our kids shoot each other on the street using illegal arms not in schools using ones their parents bought from Wall Mart.
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    The Phenom

    Number of posts : 238
    Registration date : 2008-09-18

    Re: Let's put a spark in this section

    Post  The Phenom on Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:23 pm

    But those are not good examples of why an entire nation should have strict or loose gun control. Those incidents are few and far between. Way more people are killed in the US by vehicles than school shootings or accidental shootings. It's like saying rope and knives should be banned because people use those to kill others/themselves.

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    Re: Let's put a spark in this section

    Post  Guest on Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:48 pm

    But the two aren't comperable... a child being hit by a driver and someone picking up a gun and shooting someone else are two completely different scenarios.

    In any case you do everything you can to limit the incidents, speed limits, driving tests, shaping cars so that people bounce off more easily etc. Should be the same with guns.
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    The Phenom

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    Re: Let's put a spark in this section

    Post  The Phenom on Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:56 pm

    But a car can be used in the same ways that people don't like guns: Irresponsibly (driving while using a phone, tired etc....) or as a weapon.

    Now I agree there should be restriction, but you guys in Europe take it too far, especially the countries that outright ban. If someone wants someone dead, it's going to happen, the weapon is the tool, not the problem.
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    The Stig

    Number of posts : 701
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    Re: Let's put a spark in this section

    Post  The Stig on Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:00 pm

    Why do we need guns? confused

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    Re: Let's put a spark in this section

    Post  Guest on Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:01 pm

    The Phenom wrote:But a car can be used in the same ways that people don't like guns: Irresponsibly (driving while using a phone, tired etc....) or as a weapon.

    Now I agree there should be restriction, but you guys in Europe take it too far, especially the countries that outright ban. If someone wants someone dead, it's going to happen, the weapon is the tool, not the problem.

    True but isn't a sensible step to take to make it as difficult as possible for such people to get hold of the tools? That's like saying "terrorists are going to succeed in hitting a target sooner or later so we might as well make dirty bombs easier to get hold of, since more people die in car accidents than terrorist attacks anyway"

    Incidentally on the subject of your "few and far between incidents", there were seven in America last year, three in 2007 and five in 2006... so 15 in three years. Germany, whose controls you claim are excessive, has had two in the past six years and I couldn't even find a record of one before that. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there is one, but I'd say that's a pretty convincing case for stricter controls.

    As Sweatsock already pointed out, we had one in 1996, stricter controls were brought in, and we haven't had one since.
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    The Man

    Number of posts : 3
    Registration date : 2009-01-17

    Re: Let's put a spark in this section

    Post  The Man on Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:46 pm

    The Phenom wrote:So, I bought two guns before I left the states (in preparation for the inevitable Obama ban). I bought a .40 Cal Glock model 22 Pistol, and a Mossberg 500 8 shot tactical 12 ga. shotgun. Of course, I couldn't bring them to Germany because it would cost me about $1000 for the licensing and many months of classes (and for some reason the fucking hundreds of hours of instruction I've had on much more complicated weapons and weapons systems doesn't count for shit).

    So which way is the way to go? The no guns approach of Europe, or the regulated guns of the US? Now there are of course many more issues which we will inevitably run into (social classes in certain countries, murder figures etc...) But let's start off with some general discussion.

    Why do you own guns?
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    The Phenom

    Number of posts : 238
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    Re: Let's put a spark in this section

    Post  The Phenom on Sat Mar 07, 2009 6:35 am

    JK wrote:
    True but isn't a sensible step to take to make it as difficult as possible for such people to get hold of the tools? That's like saying "terrorists are going to succeed in hitting a target sooner or later so we might as well make dirty bombs easier to get hold of, since more people die in car accidents than terrorist attacks anyway"

    Incidentally on the subject of your "few and far between incidents", there were seven in America last year, three in 2007 and five in 2006... so 15 in three years. Germany, whose controls you claim are excessive, has had two in the past six years and I couldn't even find a record of one before that. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there is one, but I'd say that's a pretty convincing case for stricter controls.

    As Sweatsock already pointed out, we had one in 1996, stricter controls were brought in, and we haven't had one since.

    Yes the sensible step is to make it as difficult as possible for CRIMINALS to get these tools. But, in America, that is not realistic. The black market is so vast that criminals have unlimited access to anything they want to get a hold of, they aren't walking into a store and purchasing the right way. Which is why I believe that the public, the law abiding public, should have little restriction in order to defend themselves and their property.

    Now if you look at the deaths in all of those incidents in America from 2006-2008 they total 60 (with 33 being in the Virginia Tech massacre). Those numbers are peanuts next to the homicide numbers using firearms in the US which typically are over 10,000 per year. These incidents are only blown up and used to create stricter controls for the law abiding public, and I'd venture that a lot of those school shootings had a little something to do with lack of supervision both in the home and American schools.

    Now if you take a look at this wikipedia entry on gun violence, it shows homicide rates by country etc... The numbers are interesting because a lot of the countries that have strict controls still have plenty of homicides with firearms (per 100,000 pop.)Germany is a good example, the US still has more but it's closer than you may think.

    And this brings us to a point to analyze. Does the amount of violence in one's country have to do with it's borders and demographics? I for one say yes it does. Perhaps the UK has such little gun violence because you are an Island, with no real weak border with a poorer nation (US and Mexico, Germany and Czech/Poland). And then begin to look at the demographics (specifically in America) of who is doing the shootings. 9.9 times out of 10 it isn't the common citizen who went through rigorous screening to purchase a gun.


    Now on the question of why I own guns, it's simple: Protection of my home and property, and because it's fun to go out and shoot. Plain and simple.
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    The Man

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    Re: Let's put a spark in this section

    Post  The Man on Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:43 pm

    Your a trained marksman, however most people are not, and it would be incredibly dangerous for people with little to no training to get into shoot-outs in their own home. Would you not agree that its safer for the general population to not have guns?

    And with regards to shooting for fun, whats wrong with going to a range? I went clay pigeon shooting the other month and thought it was quite good.
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    Big Dave

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    Re: Let's put a spark in this section

    Post  Big Dave on Sun Mar 08, 2009 2:35 pm

    The Stig wrote:Why do we need guns? confused

    Americans are not hard enough to stab each other!!
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    showstealer

    Number of posts : 1977
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    Re: Let's put a spark in this section

    Post  showstealer on Sun Mar 08, 2009 11:23 pm

    We protect our homes with locks and alarms. Oh, and neighbourhood watches! Laughing

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    Re: Let's put a spark in this section

    Post  Guest on Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:09 am

    To quote John Cleese, "if you're not mature and grown up enough to resolve your problems without suing someone or going on Jerry Springer then you're not mature and grown up enough to handle guns"
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    showstealer

    Number of posts : 1977
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    Re: Let's put a spark in this section

    Post  showstealer on Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:15 am

    JK wrote:To quote John Cleese, "if you're not mature and grown up enough to resolve your problems without suing someone or going on Jerry Springer then you're not mature and grown up enough to handle guns"
    I love it when smart arse condescending comments like this back fire and make the person look stupid. Jerry Springer is as real as wrestling! Laughing
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    The Phenom

    Number of posts : 238
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    Re: Let's put a spark in this section

    Post  The Phenom on Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:23 am

    ShowStealer wrote:We protect our homes with locks and alarms. Oh, and neighbourhood watches! Laughing

    Not effective. It's a more a hindrance than a deterrent.



    The Man wrote:Your a trained marksman, however most people are not, and it would be incredibly dangerous for people with little to no training to get into shoot-outs in their own home. Would you not agree that its safer for the general population to not have guns?

    A lot of states require some sort of NRA training in order to get licensed. Nevertheless, the general legal gun owner will not just buy a gun for self defense and then do no training with it. If they do, they're dumb.

    It's dangerous for the general populace to not have guns. Because then the police and the criminals are the only ones armed. You never hear of "man saves family during armed robbery attempt" on the headline news, because it doesn't sell. You will hear about the once every 2 years man accidentally shoots son, and then that gets used by anti-gun folks to speak of the dangers.
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    Big Dave

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    Re: Let's put a spark in this section

    Post  Big Dave on Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:29 pm

    Are guns a deterent to crime? Is crime lower in the parts of the US with more lax gun contol than in states with tighter gun control?
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    Hector_Nicols_Accordian

    Number of posts : 468
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    Re: Let's put a spark in this section

    Post  Hector_Nicols_Accordian on Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:58 pm

    The Phenom wrote:
    ShowStealer wrote:We protect our homes with locks and alarms. Oh, and neighbourhood watches! Laughing

    Not effective. It's a more a hindrance than a deterrent.



    The Man wrote:Your a trained marksman, however most people are not, and it would be incredibly dangerous for people with little to no training to get into shoot-outs in their own home. Would you not agree that its safer for the general population to not have guns?

    A lot of states require some sort of NRA training in order to get licensed. Nevertheless, the general legal gun owner will not just buy a gun for self defense and then do no training with it. If they do, they're dumb.

    It's dangerous for the general populace to not have guns. Because then the police and the criminals are the only ones armed. You never hear of "man saves family during armed robbery attempt" on the headline news, because it doesn't sell. You will hear about the once every 2 years man accidentally shoots son, and then that gets used by anti-gun folks to speak of the dangers.

    Phew, just as well there are no dumb people around then I suppose.

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    Re: Let's put a spark in this section

    Post  Guest on Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:01 pm

    ShowStealer wrote:
    JK wrote:To quote John Cleese, "if you're not mature and grown up enough to resolve your problems without suing someone or going on Jerry Springer then you're not mature and grown up enough to handle guns"
    I love it when smart arse condescending comments like this back fire and make the person look stupid. Jerry Springer is as real as wrestling! Laughing

    Show Stealer are you calling John Cleese stupid? Neutral
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    DougFlair

    Number of posts : 67
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    Re: Let's put a spark in this section

    Post  DougFlair on Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:40 pm

    Big Dave wrote:Are guns a deterent to crime? Is crime lower in the parts of the US with more lax gun contol than in states with tighter gun control?
    Yes. I don't have the stats right now, but as a quick example, I live in the state of Vermont. We have very unrestrictive gun laws, and a very low crime rate in general. In a place like New York City on the other hand, the gun laws are VERY strict on the other hand, and yet the crime rate is considerably higher per capita.

    Bottom line, if you know that the gun laws are stricter in a location- then as a criminal you might be more likely to want to commit crime in such a location, where the only people that have guns are basically cops and criminals. If you were to try to rob someone in a place like Vermont, you might find that they are more well armed than you.

    Quick example, but I think that you can get the point.
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    ThatChumpStain

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    Re: Let's put a spark in this section

    Post  ThatChumpStain on Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:46 pm

    That's all suppostion, what would the exact population figures and crimes per head work out to be, plus you remove New York City and mention New York as a state and I'm sure the average changes.
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    showstealer

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    Re: Let's put a spark in this section

    Post  showstealer on Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:13 pm

    You can't compare Vermot & New York State. Urban areas always have higher crime rates. As TCS said, take out New York City and compare the two again. Or compare London with New York. There isn't a Brit around who would want to swap gun laws, hence why this thread is a bit like talking to a brick wall.

    JK wrote:
    ShowStealer wrote:
    JK wrote:To quote John Cleese, "if you're not mature and grown up enough to resolve your problems without suing someone or going on Jerry Springer then you're not mature and grown up enough to handle guns"
    I love it when smart arse condescending comments like this back fire and make the person look stupid. Jerry Springer is as real as wrestling! Laughing

    Show Stealer are you calling John Cleese stupid? Neutral

    Making comments like that make someone look stupid. Going to an Oxbridge uni and being a smart arse doesn't make you smart, as you are more than aware of.

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    Re: Let's put a spark in this section

    Post  Guest on Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:40 am

    ShowStealer wrote:You can't compare Vermot & New York State. Urban areas always have higher crime rates. As TCS said, take out New York City and compare the two again. Or compare London with New York. There isn't a Brit around who would want to swap gun laws, hence why this thread is a bit like talking to a brick wall.

    JK wrote:
    ShowStealer wrote:
    JK wrote:To quote John Cleese, "if you're not mature and grown up enough to resolve your problems without suing someone or going on Jerry Springer then you're not mature and grown up enough to handle guns"
    I love it when smart arse condescending comments like this back fire and make the person look stupid. Jerry Springer is as real as wrestling! Laughing

    Show Stealer are you calling John Cleese stupid? Neutral

    Making comments like that make someone look stupid. Going to an Oxbridge uni and being a smart arse doesn't make you smart, as you are more than aware of.

    Indeed but did you really think that quote, by a comedian, was intended to be in any way a serious contribution to the gun debate? Neutral

    I made my serious points earlier.
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    showstealer

    Number of posts : 1977
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    Re: Let's put a spark in this section

    Post  showstealer on Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:50 am

    JK wrote:
    ShowStealer wrote:You can't compare Vermot & New York State. Urban areas always have higher crime rates. As TCS said, take out New York City and compare the two again. Or compare London with New York. There isn't a Brit around who would want to swap gun laws, hence why this thread is a bit like talking to a brick wall.

    JK wrote:
    ShowStealer wrote:
    JK wrote:To quote John Cleese, "if you're not mature and grown up enough to resolve your problems without suing someone or going on Jerry Springer then you're not mature and grown up enough to handle guns"
    I love it when smart arse condescending comments like this back fire and make the person look stupid. Jerry Springer is as real as wrestling! Laughing

    Show Stealer are you calling John Cleese stupid? Neutral

    Making comments like that make someone look stupid. Going to an Oxbridge uni and being a smart arse doesn't make you smart, as you are more than aware of.

    Indeed but did you really think that quote, by a comedian, was intended to be in any way a serious contribution to the gun debate? Neutral

    I made my serious points earlier.

    Just because it wasn't serious, it doesn't mean it's immune to stupidity.

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    Re: Let's put a spark in this section

    Post  Guest on Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:57 am

    ShowStealer wrote:
    JK wrote:
    ShowStealer wrote:You can't compare Vermot & New York State. Urban areas always have higher crime rates. As TCS said, take out New York City and compare the two again. Or compare London with New York. There isn't a Brit around who would want to swap gun laws, hence why this thread is a bit like talking to a brick wall.

    JK wrote:
    ShowStealer wrote:
    JK wrote:To quote John Cleese, "if you're not mature and grown up enough to resolve your problems without suing someone or going on Jerry Springer then you're not mature and grown up enough to handle guns"
    I love it when smart arse condescending comments like this back fire and make the person look stupid. Jerry Springer is as real as wrestling! Laughing

    Show Stealer are you calling John Cleese stupid? Neutral

    Making comments like that make someone look stupid. Going to an Oxbridge uni and being a smart arse doesn't make you smart, as you are more than aware of.

    Indeed but did you really think that quote, by a comedian, was intended to be in any way a serious contribution to the gun debate? Neutral

    I made my serious points earlier.

    Just because it wasn't serious, it doesn't mean it's immune to stupidity.

    Back to my original question, are you calling John Cleese stupid?
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    showstealer

    Number of posts : 1977
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    Re: Let's put a spark in this section

    Post  showstealer on Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:06 am

    Regarding the blackmarket Phenom, do you think it exists more in the US than in other countries due to the relaxed gun law, or because of the countries it borders?


    Last edited by ShowStealer on Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:26 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Let's put a spark in this section

    Post  Guest on Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:08 am

    Ooh here's a good one... an unarmed burglar breaks into a house and then gets his head blown off (ala Tony Martin.)

    Whose side are you on?

    (not just for Phenom, open forum)
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    showstealer

    Number of posts : 1977
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    Re: Let's put a spark in this section

    Post  showstealer on Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:31 am

    JK wrote:Ooh here's a good one... an unarmed burglar breaks into a house and then gets his head blown off (ala Tony Martin.)

    Whose side are you on?

    (not just for Phenom, open forum)
    Good question.

    As the burglar has had his head shot off his side becomes a bit irrelevant! cool v

    Sure his family will say he was just doing it to feed his starving children and it was out of character but what's done is done. The focus should now be on the various charges of the gun man/victim.

    Now, if a baseball bat was used instead and the burglar was unconscious until the police (called by the victim) came along, I would be fully behind the victim and would claim it was reasonable self defence.
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    The Phenom

    Number of posts : 238
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    Re: Let's put a spark in this section

    Post  The Phenom on Tue Mar 10, 2009 10:16 am

    I majored in this type of stuff in College so I'll rattle off a bunch of stuff for you all. As for guns being a deterrent to crime and all the statistics you want, take a look into the National Crime Victimization Survey and the FBI Uniform Crime report. You will find that states that have more lax gun laws do have less murders per capita, however those are traditionally states with little to no urban population, so there is there a conclusion to be drawn from that? You'll see that California, New York, Massachusetts, Washington D.C., Maryland all have higher per capita firearms murders than Vermont and Maine (the states with the least Gun controls). There are some years that Vermont had a higher rating than Mass I believe (2006) but this was due to a single incident that spiked their murder total (to 12 people, as opposed to the normal avg of 5). But as I said before, they are not urban areas and are very heavy into hunting.

    As for Brits wanting to trade gun laws, you may not want to, but I guarantee that if you had the amount of illegal guns in your country (as well as illegal aliens and the type of Urban population we do) you'd be crying for our gun laws. I do believe that the large black market exists in the US because for many factors, however the most dominant are a lack of security on our borders, and the current Urban population and what we have allowed it to become. It's a matter of the past 50 years and how our population has evolved.

    JK wrote:Ooh here's a good one... an unarmed burglar breaks into a house and then gets his head blown off (ala Tony Martin.)

    Whose side are you on?

    (not just for Phenom, open forum)
    I am on the side of the gun owner 100%, if that gun owner is a legal owner. Why should I wait for said burglar to pull out his weapon, whatever it may be? If you are going to come on to my property to commit a crime and potentially harm my family, I will not wait for you to act first. That is the type of mindset that gets innocent people killed, and I'm not talking about the home invader without a weapon. Myself, I wouldn't blow him away if I had a handle on the situation. I'd force him to surrender, and if he was non compliant I would use any means to subdue him, to prevent him from escaping and harming others. But I wouldn't look down upon someone that shot a home invader.

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    Re: Let's put a spark in this section

    Post  Guest on Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:34 pm


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