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    Re: Transfer Window

    Post  Guest on Wed Jan 07, 2009 3:59 am

    Sweatsock wrote:Bollocks on the Sutton thing JK. He was in great form way before the one season before he moved to Chelsea. Even at Norwich he was up there with the best strikers in the country.

    Yes he was good at Norwich, but only really had one spectacular year (1993/1994) which made him the most expensive player in the country, 5m for him from Blackburn.

    He had a good but not spectacular first year with Shearer (although admittedly that may be coloured by the fact that Shearer had an excellent one), then the next year he only played 13 times and scored... no goals. All I remember about the following season was that he broke the fair play rule and cost us a place in the Champions League, and has never apologised for it (unlike Kanu who apologised immediately after he did it against Sheff Utd.)

    1997/1998 -> This is what I call his "big year" as he finished joint top scorer in the Prem, and this is what Chelsea used to justify the 10m price tag.
    1998/99 -> Injured most of the year, bad year. Blackburn go down.
    1999/2000 -> Chelsea year, bombs spectacularly.

    So there you go, nothing to justify a 10m price tag. In my opinion that pretty much works out as one "big money" year per "big money transfer" That's my opinion anyway.
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    Sweatsock

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    Re: Transfer Window

    Post  Sweatsock on Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:09 am

    By your logic a player has to have 3 or 4 'spectacular years' to justify a big price tag. I'm afraid that just doesn't happen though. Sutton was far more than just a one season wonder who flopped after his big move. In fact I'd say it's testament to the man that he played arguably the best football of his career after the Chelsea failure.

    It's also worth noting that during his one season at Chelsea they played a style that was totally unsuitbale to his style of play. In modern terms it would be like Arsenal signing Peter Crouch.

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    Re: Transfer Window

    Post  Guest on Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:13 am

    Sweatsock wrote:By your logic a player has to have 3 or 4 'spectacular years' to justify a big price tag. I'm afraid that just doesn't happen though.

    No I totally agree that it DOESN'T happen, but maybe it should!
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    Sweatsock

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    Re: Transfer Window

    Post  Sweatsock on Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:19 am

    The other thing is that at the time of Sutton joining Chlsea transfer fees were becoming hugely inflated. During the same pre-season Celtic paid 5.5m for Eyal Berkovic and just over a year later Rangers paid 12.5m for Tore Andre Flo.

    I think it's pretty unfair to use Chris Sutton as the best example of a big money move gone wrong when there are far worse ones out there who never went on to recover their career.
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    showstealer

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    Re: Transfer Window

    Post  showstealer on Wed Jan 07, 2009 5:10 am

    JK, you've completely changed your argument. To start with you were saying that one season doesn't make a player and now you are claiming that you meant one good season shouldn't result in a big money move, e.g. Louis Saha.

    It seems quite obvious to me that you have checked some sort of stat website after I picked up on your comment which has resulted in your u turning and providing a brief career biography. I also believe that you would of mentioned the SAS partnership at Blackburn if you were actually following football back then you would recall it was probably the best partnership in the premiership at the time.

    As for the throw in incident, that's all it was, an incident. It didn't cost Arsenal second place as they should of wrapped it up before then. A season is a marathon, not a sprint!

    As for transfers, Boro are trying to keep Downing hold off for more money from Spurs.

    Weaver should be leaving and we are not getting 2 Palace has beens in Fletcher and Scowcroff!

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    Re: Transfer Window

    Post  Guest on Wed Jan 07, 2009 5:15 am

    I said he was unproven, i.e. imo that he hadn't proven he was worth his hype or his price tag just because he'd had one good year. Check.

    I DID mention the SAS partnership. Check

    I did consult wikipedia to check I got the years right and to find a demonstrable factual basis, as I always do, imo the stats strengthened my argument. Check

    Where's the u-turn?

    I do agree about getting back to the transfers. Arsenal have signed another kid to the youth deals, Conor Henderson and Arshavin's agent has warned us that Zenit are inflating Arshavin's pricetag. Breaking news from an inside source there! He also has evidence that Chelsea were ripped off in the Schevchenko deal Laughing
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    showstealer

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    Re: Transfer Window

    Post  showstealer on Wed Jan 07, 2009 5:24 am

    So now you are claiming Sutton was unproven!! Laughing Despite being a premiership winner? You've u turned back to your original statement!

    You didn't mention the partnership, other than saying Shearer had a better season.

    Here's what you said.
    JK wrote:Arse-havin just comes across as an irritable egotistical money and attention seeking scrotum zit who had one good year and is now being heralded as the 2nd coming of Pele. One year does not make a player, just ask Chris Sutton, Alex Manninger or Jose Reyes.

    Sutton was a very experienced & proven premiership player who simple didn't suit Chelsea's style of play.

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    Re: Transfer Window

    Post  Guest on Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:06 am

    ShowStealer wrote:So now you are claiming Sutton was unproven!! Laughing Despite being a premiership winner? You've u turned back to your original statement!

    No I was referring to Arshavin just now. I should have made that clearer.

    ShowStealer wrote:You didn't mention the partnership, other than saying Shearer had a better season.

    I said that Sutton himself had a good but not spectacular season which imo is true. The SAS partnership was a great one, but I felt that Shearer was the standout one whilst Sutton was just a good partner to him, which I feel is justified given that Shearer scored over twice as many goals as Sutton did that year. I can think of at least 5 other players that scored more than Sutton did.

    ShowStealer wrote:Here's what you said.
    JK wrote:Arse-havin just comes across as an irritable egotistical money and attention seeking scrotum zit who had one good year and is now being heralded as the 2nd coming of Pele. One year does not make a player, just ask Chris Sutton, Alex Manninger or Jose Reyes.

    Sutton was a very experienced & proven premiership player who simple didn't suit Chelsea's style of play.

    And that statement you've quoted was meant to be read in the context of my original statement about Arshavin not justifying his price tag. You can't honestly tell me that Chelsea payed 10m based on Sutton's performances for Norwich half a decade before and not based on him finishing as top scorer a few years before.

    I do concede that I shouldn't have used Alex Manninger in that context as the big money move never came in. That's more me feeling silly about claiming he should have replaced Seaman so for that I apologise.

    Still looking for the u-turn... my argument has consistently been that one year is not enough to justify a big spend starting by me saying that Arshavin was unproven. If you read everything that follows in the context of the first post, there is no u-turn.
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    showstealer

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    Re: Transfer Window

    Post  showstealer on Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:37 am

    JK wrote:Still looking for the u-turn...
    As this is the only part of your post where you haven't apologised, back tracked or agreed with me I think that is a bit harsh.

    As for Chelsea not considering his time at Norwich, neither you or myself have any idea why they choose to buy him. 10m would have been the figure agreed with Blackburn at a time when transfer fees were sky rocketing. It wasn't anywhere near a British record, unlike his move from Norwich which was and considered very high at the time.

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    Re: Transfer Window

    Post  Guest on Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:40 am

    I fail to see how I've made a u-turn. You implied I completely changed my argument. I have only apologised where I haven't been clear enough but the argument itself hasn't changed.
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    IOV

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    Re: Transfer Window

    Post  IOV on Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:33 am

    I think the general consensus is that you are talking shite JK

    Be pleased that Wenger may be getting over his ego and actually be willing to spend some of the money he is given every year instead of doing his poor me all i have is the youngsters routine!
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    Clarkey

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    Re: Transfer Window

    Post  Clarkey on Thu Jan 08, 2009 3:35 pm

    Arsene will pull out all his usual ploys in his press conference tomorrow in response to the Arshavin speculation/spiel. I'm torn as to which denial we're going to get; the flat out "no", keeping it open like last week with something along the lines of "If we sign someone, you will be informed", or his favourite along the lines of "We have enough options to fill in wide attacking positions. We have Nasri, Diaby and Eboue as well as Walcott and Rosicky to return. Do not forget RvP, Bendtner and Eduardo (insert Randall, Ramsey, Wilshere as he sees fit) whom can also play there.....in fact we have congestion in this area".

    Either way I see Wenger dampening this all tomorrow in some form as per usual. Hell he denied Reyes the day before Jose was crying before stepping on the plane straight into Arsene's arms, so it's not to say a denial will mean it is dead and buried. The Arsenal website is already promoting the darn conference as having the answers. With some speculation building around Kranjcar as another option, with Arsene's confidant Boro Primorac supposedly confirming truth to it all in the Croatia press apparently (the papers here will probably wait until the Weekend to report on it), it all smells of Wenger having his first option in Arshavin and Niko as his back up when the fee to Zenit isn't to our taste.

    Hey, he could shock the world and sign both as well as signing a defender, a CM, as well as his usual youngsters. Anyways, I can see alot of easily excitable Gooner's crying after Wenger spouts one of his well used lines tomorrow...then Arshavin to go on to win the CL with Juventus in a seasons time and Wenger to then enlighten us all on how 'he nearly signed him'. Very Happy

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    Re: Transfer Window

    Post  Guest on Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:54 am

    Well he said "nothing has fallen through" but we haven't signed anyone yet, and mentioned our limited resources in the current climate.

    I would translate that as "Zenit are being arseholes over the price and we're not willing to pay that much for him"
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    Garibaldi
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    Re: Transfer Window

    Post  Garibaldi on Fri Jan 09, 2009 2:34 pm

    Zenit being arseholes over the price for Arshavin...

    ...Hasn't that been a sports headline in the british press since the Euros?

    I don't mean this as a knock to Arsenal at all, but he'll end up going to a "bigger club" - i.e. someone like Juve/Inter/Real who are willing to pay over the odds irrespectiveof budget.

    Arsene's just too clever (I can't believe I just said that! Laughing ) to spend 5-10 million more than he has to for a single player who doesn't play in any position he really needs to strengthen in. Like us last year, a forward is the one thing you don't need.


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    Re: Transfer Window

    Post  Guest on Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:15 pm

    Unless Wenger's planning on converting him into a Pires-style winger to give us cover for Walcott and Nasri... but 20m for a cover player is steep, no matter how good he is!
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    Big Dave

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    Re: Transfer Window

    Post  Big Dave on Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:56 pm

    How is trying to get the best price possible the same as being arseholes?!


    Looks like Ipswich and Charlton both managed not to sign old man Windass!

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    Re: Transfer Window

    Post  Guest on Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:00 pm

    Overpricing makes you an arsehole, end of.

    That said I wasn't complaining when Wenger extracted 28m for Anelka out of Real Madrid and billed Villareal 2m for Cybot
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    Clarkey

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    Re: Transfer Window

    Post  Clarkey on Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:18 pm

    He wouldn't be a cover player. He would be coming in as Rosicky's replacement as far as I can see going by Wenger saying something along the lines of expecting Tomas to have played 80% of this season. With it obviously not working out like that it has meant missing his influence. Something Arshavin would be coming in to change. Plus he can pop up in the hole should Wenger decide to toy with the formation, fighting for that spot with the likes of Nasri and Diaby when they aren't in centre mid.

    Simply, Zenit need to sell now because they missed the boat on a huge fee in the Summer. But they are not a sinking ship with their cash reserves heading down the toilet. They're not being arseholes, infact the arsehole of the situation has been Arshavin himself going by the way he has conducted himself since he missed his big move to Barca in the Summer, with his agent helping stir the pot for a move for good measure. With his dream club being Barca, and Wenger/Arsenal continually bottling it and letting players get their dream move irrespective of the real effect to the team in recent years (basically Hleb, Flamini, Diarra); it will be in no way shocking to see him move on to Barca in a couple of years if he did move. Zenit themselves won't want us getting a nicer fee than they could of got, with us cashing in before the installments are finished (looking at the Jose Reyes deal). They want parity with the fee they paid for Danny, which I think is fair enough to ask. In actual fact, I'd wish we had the balls as a club to act in a similar manner when our bigger stars get their heads turned to the likes of Spain and Italy.

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    Re: Transfer Window

    Post  Guest on Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:25 am

    We bit 10m for Arshavin which was, unsurprisingly, rejected. Expect Man City to hijack the deal Chelsea-style by the end of the week.
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    showstealer

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    Re: Transfer Window

    Post  showstealer on Tue Jan 13, 2009 7:13 am

    Just to demonstrate the financial gulf, here are the current deals in the championship.

    Barnsley

    In (1)
    Hugo Colace (from Newell's Old Boys) - UNDISCLOSED

    Out (2)
    Brian Howard (to Sheffield United) - 500K
    Miguel Mostto (to Total Clean Futbol) - UNDISCLOSED


    Birmingham City

    In (5)
    Hameur Bouazza (from Fulham) - LOAN
    Lee Bowyer (from West Ham United) - LOAN
    Keith Fahey (from St. Patrick's Athletic) - FREE
    Robin Shroot (Unattached) - FREE
    Scott Sinclair (from Chelsea) - LOAN

    Out (4)
    Artur Krysiak (to Motherwell) - LOAN
    Krystian Pearce (to Scunthorpe) - LOAN (Extended)
    Nicky Hunt (on loan from Bolton) - RECALLED
    Quincy Owusu-Abeyie (on loan from Spartak Moscow) - LOAN (Not Extended)

    Blackpool

    In (3)
    Dudley Campbell (from Leicester City) - LOAN
    Roy O'Donovan (from Sunderland) - LOAN
    Graeme Owens (from Middlesbrough) - LOAN

    Out (1)
    Lee Hendrie (on loan from Sheffield United) - LOAN (Not Extended)


    Bristol City

    In (2)
    Stern John (from Southampton) - LOAN (Extended)
    Peter Styvar (from MSK Zilina) - UNDISCLOSED

    Out (3)
    Tristan Plummer (to Torquay United) - LOAN
    Lee Trundle (to Leeds United) - LOAN
    Andy Webster (on loan from Rangers) - LOAN (Not Extended)


    Burnley

    In (0)

    Out (0)



    Cardiff City

    In (1)
    Chris Burke (from Rangers) - FREE

    Out (0)



    Charlton Athletic

    In (3)
    Deon Burton (from Sheffield Wednesday) - FREE
    Graeme Murty (from Reading) - LOAN
    Matthew Spring (from Luton) - Undisclosed

    Out (4)
    Keith Gillespie (on loan from Sheffield United) - LOAN (Not Extended)
    Dean Sinclair (to Grimsby Town) - LOAN
    Luke Varney (to Derby County) - 1M
    Jay McEverley (to Derby County - LOAN cancelled


    Coventry City

    In (0)

    Out (1)
    Gary Borrowdale (to Queens Park Rangers) - UNDISCLOSED


    Crystal Palace

    In (0)

    Out (1)
    Rhoys Wiggins (to Bournemouth) - LOAN


    Derby County

    In (1)
    Seb Hines (from Middlesbrough) - LOAN
    Luke Varney (from Charlton Athletic) - 1M

    Out (0)



    Doncaster Rovers

    In (0)

    Out (1)
    Stuart Elliott (to Grimsby Town) - LOAN


    Ipswich Town

    In (0)

    Out (1)
    Chris Casement (to Wycombe Wanderers) - LOAN


    Norwich City

    In (1)
    Jonathan Grounds (from Middlesbrough) - LOAN

    Out (1)
    Luke Chadwick (to Milton Keynes Dons) - FREE


    Nottingham Forest

    In (0)

    Out (0)



    Plymouth Argyle

    In (1)
    David Gray (from Manchester United) - LOAN

    Out (0)



    Preston North End

    In (1)
    Eddie Nolan (from Blackburn Rovers) - UNDISCLOSED

    Out (1)
    Joe Anyinsah (to Carlisle United) - UNDISCLOSED


    Queens Park Rangers

    In (4)
    Gary Borrowdale (from Coventry City) - UNDISCLOSED
    Lee Cook (from Fulham) - UNDISCLOSED
    Heidar Helguson (from Bolton Wanderers) - UNDISCLOSED
    Wayne Routledge (from Aston Villa) - UNDISCLOSED

    Out (0)



    Reading

    In (0)

    Out (2)
    Dave Mooney (to Stockport County) - LOAN
    Graeme Murty (to Charlton Athletic) - LOAN


    Sheffield United

    In (2)
    Leigh Bromby (from Watford) - LOAN
    Brian Howard (from Barnsley) - 500K

    Out (3)
    James Beattie (to Stoke City) - UNDISCLOSED
    Adam Chapman (to Oxford United) - LOAN
    Nicky Law (to Bradford City) - LOAN (Extended)


    Sheffield Wednesday

    In (1)
    Michael Gray (from Wolverhampton Wanderers) - LOAN

    Out (1)
    Deon Burton (to Charlton Athletic) - FREE


    Southampton

    In (2)
    Lee Molyneux (from Everton) - FREE
    Ryan Smith (from Millwall) - FREE

    Out (3)
    Nathan Dyer (to Swansea City) - LOAN
    Stern John (to Bristol City) - LOAN (Extended)
    Jake Thomson (to Bournemouth) - LOAN


    Swansea City

    In (1)
    Nathan Dyer (from Southampton) - LOAN

    Out (0)



    Watford

    In (2)
    Jack Cork (from Chelsea) - LOAN
    Gavin Hoyte (from Arsenal) - LOAN

    Out (1)
    Leigh Bromby (to Sheffield United) - LOAN


    Wolverhampton Wanderers

    In (0)

    Out (2)
    Mark Davies (to Leicester City) - LOAN
    Michael Gray (to Sheffield Wednesday) - LOAN

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    Re: Transfer Window

    Post  Guest on Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:17 am

    Gavin's gone out on loan? Shocked

    That I did not see coming. Lending out defenders when ours seemingly get injured every time they sneeze didn't seem likely.
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    showstealer

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    Re: Transfer Window

    Post  showstealer on Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:08 am

    Man City are after....KAKA!

    A City delegation has reportedly met with their Milan counterparts with a bid of 100m and a weekly wage of 500,000 on offer for the 26-year-old.

    Won't be long until the premiership crashes! cheers cheers
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    Rooq

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    Re: Transfer Window

    Post  Rooq on Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:54 am

    ShowStealer wrote:Man City are after....KAKA!

    A City delegation has reportedly met with their Milan counterparts with a bid of 100m and a weekly wage of 500,000 on offer for the 26-year-old.

    Won't be long until the premiership crashes! cheers cheers

    Agree!

    With wages like this and the way the whole world is finacially at the mo football seems to think its bigger than anything! it will soon get bitten on the bum too and crash also! Footballers cant go on earning massive money driving Aston Martins everyday while the ordinary fan struggles to just put food on the table.
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    IOV

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    Re: Transfer Window

    Post  IOV on Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:45 am

    Thats just obscene, its been reported that he has turned it down anyway

    And Show Stealer I dont think you should be so happy at the thought of the Premiership crashing because if it does it probably means Sky has went down first and no one will have any money and it will be bye bye everyone
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    showstealer

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    Re: Transfer Window

    Post  showstealer on Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:05 am

    IOV wrote:Thats just obscene, its been reported that he has turned it down anyway

    And Show Stealer I dont think you should be so happy at the thought of the Premiership crashing because if it does it probably means Sky has went down first and no one will have any money and it will be bye bye everyone
    No it wouldn't, I doubt any club will go bye bye. Obvious Arsenal with their stadium repayments maybe in a bit of trouble, but that's karma for leaving Woolwich! The football league survived the ITV digital crash with no casualties.

    Clubs would have to restructure and perhaps not operate with a massive debt, which they should be doing now anyway, and even more so now that there's a credit crunch. I have no idea what SKY has to do with clubs being run badly.

    As stadiums are now at a decent standard I can't see too many negatives, the power will drastically switch back to the clubs and foreign investment will be nearly non-existent. There will also be more competition with clubs operating on a more level playing field. I imagine the Champions League will also get affected. It was only good for a few while it lasted.
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    IOV

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    Re: Transfer Window

    Post  IOV on Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:44 am

    If the Premiership crashs there will be clubs going out of business

    SKY are one of the main reasons that clubs are able to work with such debt with the guarenteed big money they give the clubs each year
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    Dr Hellwig PhD

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    Re: Transfer Window

    Post  Dr Hellwig PhD on Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:00 am

    If you want to see what will happen, take a look North...

    Just ten years ago Rangers were spending still spending big money to bring in players like Giovanni Van Bronkhurst, Artur Numan, Stephane Guivarch, Tore Andre Flo, Fernando Ricksen, Gabriel Amato some with more success than others.

    Fast forward a decade and we're virtually on our knees, desperately hoping that someone will come in and buy one of our few remaining assets to keep the wolf from the door...

    We split the lion's share of the money coming into Scottish football with our rivals Celtic and even then one poor European season and we look as if we're only a couple of accidents away from going down the pan (however unlikely that actually is).

    The point is, we are a big club with a massive support that has been relatively successful in the last few years (two cup wins and a European final last season) and we're really feeling it tight at the moment.

    All it takes is for one of the mega-rich owners to get bored with their plaything and decide to play with something else instead...
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    showstealer

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    Re: Transfer Window

    Post  showstealer on Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:56 am

    IOV wrote:SKY are one of the main reasons that clubs are able to work with such debt with the guarenteed big money they give the clubs each year
    That's exactly how the crash will happen, eventually there will be a lack of interest, perhaps with people getting bored with the predictability of it or the foreign owners wanting to invest elsewhere, and the sky money will drop. If a club has budgeted against money they aren't going to get they will be in deep trouble, it's exactly what happened to Leeds when they budgeted to play in the Champions League the following season. They didn't go out of business and it is extremely unlikely any premiership clubs will.

    Have a look at the difference between the premiership transfers and those in the championship, if the TV money is greatly reduced there has to be serious changes in the way a club is run.

    Talking of foreign owners getting bored, Abramovich didn't go to Old Trafford.

    The end is neigh! Twisted Evil
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    Garibaldi
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    Re: Transfer Window

    Post  Garibaldi on Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:32 am

    I think it's safer to say the core premiership teams won't go bust - those regularly struggling to come up or stay up might be in trouble.

    Although out of the big 4, the loss of the big money TV shows could cripple all bar Liverpool - Rom will probably walk, and both Arsenal and Man Utd need the CL money to cover their debts.

    And btw - nice work on the Woolwich comment there, Showstealer Laughing


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    Shaun2J

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    Re: Transfer Window

    Post  Shaun2J on Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:00 am

    Dortmund snapped up Kevin Prince Boateng on loan, Premier League nothing for him then or was he being a twat?

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